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 Another important biblical question. 
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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
I thought christmas wos stolen from pagans, along with saint nick who's real pseudonym is Sinterclaas

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
I honestly don't care about where or what happened, all I know is the bible is bullshit, and Christmas time is vacation time.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Hey, I'll keep this one short for all of you and ignore alot I could address:
Actually, you've only argued against celebrating Christmas with certain practices, not against the celebration of Christmas in general. Honestly, the core celebration of Christmas should be specifically going to Mass (or some other service for those non-Catholic/Orthodox groups), which is something we happen to do a lot and hold every day but raise to a higher importance than simple every day stuff. In the liturgical calender cycle, we would very much be celebrating the birth of Christ regardless, we simply place it on the 25th of December (everything has a specific day), and this may well be to TAKE THE PLACE OF some previous pagan practices, by riding them and establishing something else in its place, but that contradicts nothing of the above. Interestingly, when the central aspect is the Mass, the birth of Christ isn't even the central matter still, just a specific reflection. Instead, the Crucifixion and Resurrection are the central matters, as that is the center of every Mass.

Also, St. Nicholas is a saint from around the 3rd (or 4th?) century I believe. He went around and helped some poor people by giving them some money or something, was jailed at another point for being Christian, later released, etc.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Actually, I specifically do not mean the Epiphany Mass. I mean Christmas Mass. Epiphany is another Mass, which, granted, is of greater importance in some of the Greek churches. In any case, that Mass follows the same structure, just focuses on a different passage and mystery, at least during the liturgy of the Word (first part of mass, though in the past this was of even lesser importance).

That St. Nicholas has been confused and mixed with Odin in popular culture changes nothing. However, I would be suspect of your knowledge of Odin, as your knowledge of St. Nicholas is also suspect. There is rather little known about the life of St. Nicholas, other than that he was a Bishop (of Myra) and was generally known for his generosity, and is usually claimed to have been at the Council of Nicaea. There are, of course, plenty of stories about him, often relating to protection of children and stuff to do with sailors and the sea, and there is the famous story of him giving money secretly to a poor many for his daughters dowries (which landed in a shoe or stockings). The story you refer to sounds like a particularly obscure one, and likely a rather later account than many of the others by its style.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Lime wrote:
Could it be that the mass was placed on that date arbitrarily or that somehow it just became mixed with these pagan practices as a form of culture integration?

Because if you didn't know Mithra's birthrate was projected onto this date as well. And Mithra, being of Zoroastrian origin means that this is a "pagan" celebration.
No where in the bible does it project Jesus's birth during the winter solstice.

An important note for you would be to know that Zoroastrians and their religion existed around the same time as the beginning of Christianity.

I call some serious bullshit on your part.


Are you getting your info from the indie 'film' Zeitgeist by chance? The one which my anti-christian pagan friend researched and found to actually be full of bullshit?

Either way: Taking the date may have been targeted, but that simply means we targeted a pagan celebration, destroyed it, and replaced it with our own so that the former would not come back. I see no problem with this. We would be celebrating this particular mystery of the incarnation at some time anyway, might as well do it at this time and get rid overshadow some pagan practices.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
santas the devil, and yet parents try so hard to get thier children to believe in him
involuntary satanism:)

notice

santa
satan

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
yes, yes of course, and lets notice also:

Osama
Obama

OR: George Washington
King George

OR: Angels
Angles

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
When you destroy the gods and beliefs behind the practice, i.e. the point of it, you destroy the practice.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
n0th1n wrote:
When you destroy the gods and beliefs behind the practice, i.e. the point of it, you destroy the practice.

Cant kill the gods if they don't exist, and since they don't exist, the practice is nothing more but a waste of time.

And the radio talk show from your sig thing was playing some papa roach song I haven't heard since I was like 12

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Noth1n, you are a master of theologian spin.

But alas, you forget who the fuck you're dealing with.

Now, I have done little research on the celebration of Christmas (the anti-Christian part at least, I focused more of my time attacking the PC police who hate Christmas because they hate America), but I can weigh in to say this:
You seem to show major signs of someone who is trying to cover something up. Think of this... you say "it just happens to be on that day". Anyone with half a brain would call that bullshit. What Lime said was correct, it's integration. What the Christians did was take another culture's celebration and made it their own. I am no fan of Zeitgeist, and if this is where you think Lime got it from, I can see your animosity, but much of what Lime speaks is truth. And even if some aspects (such as Mithra) turn out to not be true, what the picture portrayed here remains. Christians have integrated the remembrance of the birth of Christ with the celebrations of a Pagan ritual.

If the Bible is right, God doesn't like that sort of thing.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Kami wrote:
n0th1n wrote:
When you destroy the gods and beliefs behind the practice, i.e. the point of it, you destroy the practice.

Cant kill the gods if they don't exist, and since they don't exist, the practice is nothing more but a waste of time.

And the radio talk show from your sig thing was playing some papa roach song I haven't heard since I was like 12


That wasn't my show, just the station. My show is only on at certain times, and wasn't this week due to snow closing the building.

Carsito: I don't believe I did say "it just happens to be". I even said specifically if you read that choosing that day may have been targeted. But, that, it would seem as I said before, to be destroying an old practice and replacing it with another. I also said we would celebrate Christmas at another time anyway, though maybe in less degree (hard to say). Some symbols may have been kept, but even the meaning of those symbols (and the meaning behind symbols is obviously the main point) were destroyed and changed. Now, you call this integration, and say it is against Biblical teaching, that is a matter we may discuss. Might mean that we should Celebrate Christmas differently and get rid of some of this practices (which are not used throughout the Christian world, by the way, nor is the same day used). However, I don't think its actually a problem as much as you think. The passages Lime refers to are taken out of context, and I think some of them are in light of other matters which are very different types of things: like, for instance, the Samaritans and other groups and in Judaism that tried to keep the other gods and worship them as well. Or the conquered areas that, when the Israelites moved in and claimed a different God, insisted that they sacrifice their children to God to get rid of the locusts as they used to do. Maybe it should apply to these Christmas practices, maybe not. Then again, the Old Testament said we shouldn't eat pork, the New said it was now alright. The Old that no work should be done of any kind on the Sabbath (or maybe it was the tradition of the elders that did that), the New that said it some cases you could, and that it was lawful to do Good on the Sabbath. This seeming conflict may be a problem for another place, though most Christians don't really have too much of a problem with it, but of course there is a difference between Theology and Religious Study.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Lime: Religion is something hard to give up, especially when you reach the point that you wish to study it in college.

It becomes a slippery slope. it starts with the belief in it, than some kind of trust in it. People trust God and see him as some loving thing that keeps us safe or puts us through hell for our better good. Religion for most is supposed to justify the bad in our world, making life easier for them. The very idea that bad shit happens just cause is scary. So after trust there is brainwashing. The start to "understand" the religious works and the specific stories that otherwise don't make sense. Anyone who reads the bible will know it's horse shit, but brainwashing (religious studies) will have people think that 2+2=5. Why? Because God made it that way. And then there's the final stage, Noth1n's stage. Obviously he has some intellect in order to be able to debate on the subject, but his debates are flawed in the main point that he is somehow trying to justify his belief in something that obviously doesn't exist. He knows that we will never believe, so he focuses more on protecting the bible itself from our attacks (such as your attack on Christmas). I'll be honest, I do the same thing whenever an Atheist attacks the bible mainly because I am the Devil's Advocate, but I will say, there is a certain point that the only things you CAN say to protect the bible are bullshit. Noth1n mainly reaches a dead end when he tries to justify his belief. We've had discussions before on evidence, and the mere fact is he has none. The only thing he has that makes him believe is faith. A blind following of something that has no evidence or even reasonable idea to support it. Philosophy has reasoning with no evidence. Religion, mostly, isn't even reasonable. But the religious (whom take up most of the world) can not accept that they are alone when it comes to Fate. So no matter what, you can't break through to them. I am lucky to be a very logical person that I was able to become an Atheist/Agnostic when I was 14. Hell, I didn't even have any Atheist influence, it just mathematically made sense to not believe in God (specifically any religious portrayal of God).

Noth1n: So you admit that celebration of Christmas in remembrance of Jesus may or may not be sacrilegious? Clearly it is not clear enough in the bible. All we do know is that you can not celebrate/worship God through Pagan practices, and Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ that spawned from Pagan ritual.
I would say, in order to be a good Christian it is best not to celebrate Christmas at all. Leave it to Easter, that's the important part anyway.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
Lime: in other words you either have no idea what just happened (as usual) or you don't want to address it because you're backed into a corner. I expect you to deny this when you get the chance. Go ahead, you know your questions about Christianity rarely go beyond the standard Jehovah's witness, right? In fact they are very much in the same vain or the same arguments, and they've never bothered me, either.

Carsito: You don't know me or anything about my faith. I don't even really discuss it on here because there would be no real point in talking to you guys about it beyond the most trivial and basic levels (hell, if you notice, I'm always only talking in response to things, I'm not the one out initiating conversation on my terms or on anything I really care about). Honestly, I could make a similar long 'slippery slope' argument about agnostics and atheists, and many have, and about how meaningless your life is, and how its really just makes you feel good about yourself and makes your life alot easier and carefree, but what would that prove? Might say that we simply care about different things, or that we are both blind, or that it doesn't matter which way you choose.
As for admitting that the celebration of Christmas may be sacrilegious, you need to read the posts in their entirety sometime. I've stated over and over that these 'objections' have no implication on the celebration of Christmas itself, just on some of the customary practices associated with it, which aren't even that important and can and have changed from time to time. Catholics go through and celebrate every part of the Gospels on a Liturgical cycle. The birth/nativity/incarnation being a part of the Gospels means we would be celebrating it. It happens to be emphasized as its a pretty major event and factor for everything else that goes on and for all its implications. Why protestants must have it when they don't actually go through in such a cycle is their deal and honestly is probably carry over. You now seem to think its mixing with other pagan practices to have the celebration at a similar time as some of the old pagan celebrations, fine, thats an argument that would effect the specific placement of the celebration, not the celebration itself. Nor does it mean that the celebration came from pagan religion, but that possibly the selection of time of year did. We could go on with this discussion once we are actually talking about the same thing. Of course, you probably won't even read most of this.
And, hey, your right, Easter is the main thing. Aren't you guys going to have fun when you learn that Easter is actually the name of a Roman (I believe Roman, maybe another from that area) goddess. But, then again, the celebration isn't even called Easter in other languages or any equivalent but Paschal Triduum or Passion Sunday (referring to the connection with the Crucifixion) but that's of course more information than you'd ever care about.

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Post Re: Another important biblical question.
I don't know about other Atheists/agnostics, but my beliefs certainly didn't come from the desire for a carefree life. As I explained, it came from reasoning. Religion held no burden over me, in fact, I "loved" God and shit like that. I was pretty religious back in the day and liked believing in it. But over time, it just didn't make any sense. I guess I got smart at 14.
And, being Atheist has made somethings better and others worse. I see death as something much more depressing. In fact, I'm surrounded with thoughts of hopelessness and despair, but for some reason, it makes me not care anymore. After all the shit I've come to realize, I still don't turn to religion or even the thought of something "more" because frankly, there is no evidence of any of it. I am a skeptic.

Now, you are true in that you haven't described enough of why you have faith. But, it is safe to presume it's based on nothing more than biblical scripture and your "relationship". You have no proof nor evidence. Any "historical scriptures" you may have are merely for the religious convenience. It's really a lot like the people who believe in Bigfoot or UFOs or the 9/11 conspiracies. So much "evidence" and the claims of "how could so many people be witnesses to this if it weren't true". Sure, testimonials are nice, but if you wanna prove that Bigfoot exists, you need more than just testimonials and grainy footage (hell, at least with bigfoot they have footage).

But I, of course, can not feel what you feel. If you have some feeling in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that God truly loves you, okay... but really now, you only present yourself as a fool to those of us who are skeptics. Consider this, I don't even believe in the Big Bang Theory that much. It has some nice explanations, but I'd rather wait for MORE evidence of it.

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